“And He gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ” (Ephesians 4:11-13).
Many people question whether or not apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers are for today. We wish to emphasize a relational Christianity. We hope to do away with the artificial distinction between the professional clergy and the non-professional layman. We want to ensure that Christ is the Head of His Church, and not some man or woman who holds a title, position, or office. We desire to see a priesthood of believers functioning within a community of like-minded brothers and sisters. Naturally, this causes some people to wonder how the ministry gifts fit into this model of Christianity. Does Ephesians 4:11 apply to us today? If so, how?
If we truly understand the purpose of these ministry functions then the problem of their relevance today is solved. Paul tells us exactly how long we will need the ministry of the apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor and teacher. These ministries will continue “till we ALL come in the unity of the faith, and of the full-knowledge [epignosis] of the Son of God, unto a perfect [mature] man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ” (Ephesians 4:13).
Let us simply observe the Church of Jesus Christ today and ask: have we all come in the unity of the faith? Have we all attained to the full-knowledge of the Son of God? Have we all, as the Body of Christ (not just individually), grown into the fullness of Christ? The key word here is ALL. Some may have, but it is clear that all have not. So the answer to these questions is no. Since we, as the corporate and universal Body of Christ, have yet to reach the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, we still need the ministries of the apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor and teacher.
According to God’s thought, those who are called to serve the Body in these functions are supposed to be part of the SOME who have already entered into the unity of the faith, the full-knowledge of the Son of God, the fullness of Christ. Who is qualified to function as an apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor or teacher? It should be those who have walked with the Lord Jesus for some length of time and know Him to such a degree that they are more conformed to the image of Christ than their less experienced brothers and sisters. Having established a mature relationship with Christ, they can now turn their attention to serving and helping others to come to that same maturity.
I have qualified my words by saying “should be” and “supposed to be”. I am expressing the ideal. We know that everyone who uses these functions as a title or office for lording over others are not who they claim to be. They can be quite gifted but remain spiritually immature and completely ignorant of what it means to bring people into the depths of Christ if they have yet to experience those depths for themselves. If a so-called ministry does nothing to bring people deeper into Christ then it really is not a ministry at all, and it is worthless insofar as the Kingdom of God is concerned. We might as well lay the axe to the root, chop that tree down and throw it into the fire. It is wood, hay, and stubble. Go ahead and kill it right now because it is dead already.
(I will go further and say if you claim to be a Christian but you do not perceive yourself becoming more and more centered on Christ then I wonder if you are really even saved at all – because you have missed the whole point of Christianity. For the Christian, Christ is increasing, Christ is becoming larger and larger, Christ is becoming the focus. It is quite simple to see who is, and who is not, living up to this standard. The more spiritually mature a person is the more Christ-centered they cannot help but become. This is the unavoidable and inevitable consequence of becoming a Christian, a disciple of Jesus. This is how the Holy Spirit leads each and every true believer, and there are no exceptions to the rule. It is as predictable and certain as the sunrise following after the darkness of night. If the Son of God is not rising higher and higher and shining brighter and brighter in your heart then stop fooling yourself: you are still in the dark.)
Now, a novice is primarily concerned with his or her own spiritual training, whereas an elder is primarily concerned with the spiritual training of others. You have to be a student before you can be a teacher. One does not just decide one day to be a teacher and start a class. To be a teacher requires many years of going to school and being a student. Only after they have mastered their subject are they qualified to teach others.
Likewise, before you can disciple and teach others and serve them in any kind of ministry capacity (and I am using the word “ministry” in its purist Biblical sense, not in any institutional sense), you have to first be discipled and taught yourself. I mean discipled and taught by the Holy Spirit, growing in grace and in the knowledge of Christ. I have never seen the inside of a seminary or Bible college. I have never taken a course in theology (although some of my greatest critics fervently wish I would take a few). I have no certificates, diplomas, or degrees to speak of. But the Holy Spirit Who teaches me and leads me into all Truth has made me wiser than all my would-be teachers. It is not I, but Christ. This Wisdom comes from above; it is not of this world. It is Spirit-and-Truth revelation, not flesh-and-blood knowledge. One is not qualified before God on the basis of theological training, leadership ability, charisma, Bible-knowledge, spiritual gift, congregational vote, or credentialing authority. These count for nothing in terms of whether or not a person has experienced the depths of Jesus Christ.
In the Church that Jesus is building, an older person is not necessarily a spiritual elder. We do not look to the age of a person’s physical body when determining their spiritual maturity. Of course, we owe a certain amount of respect to the aged by virtue of their seniority; but they may not necessarily be our elder in the things of the Lord. One can be older chronologically and be quite immature in spiritual matters. Likewise, a relatively young man or woman can have a deep relationship with the Lord and be light years ahead of those two or three times their age. A young man or woman who knows God is more elder than a senior citizen who does not know God. We cannot judge by the flesh, or we will be misled.
If our desire is for maturity, that is, if we desire to come to the full-knowledge of Christ and grow up into Him in all things, we should naturally pay attention to those who are elder in the Lord. But being an elder has nothing to do with leadership ability, filling an office, having a title, or performing some ministerial duty or sacerdotal function in the church. The elders are simply those who are older in the Lord. It is quite simple. My elder brother, or my elder sister, has walked with the Lord longer than I have. The implication is that they are more conformed to the image of Christ than myself; they have experienced a deeper work of the Cross than I have; thus, they have more practical wisdom than I do, they have something to teach me, and I need to hear Christ in them so I, too, can grow. It should be obvious to you who is, and who is not, your elder in the Lord. And, it should be plain to see that not everyone who is older is necessarily elder. If you say you are a believer but you live no differently from the world then you can be as old as Methuselah yet you are certainly not an elder.
What am I getting at? “The fullness of Christ.” That is the goal. But you cannot presume to bring people into a fullness that you have not experienced yourself. Common sense tells us that true apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers have to be spiritual elders. They must be walking in that fullness of Christ if God would use them to bring us to that same fullness; how could it possibly be otherwise? We have no business being instructed or discipled by someone who is not our elder in the Lord; what can they possibly add to us, and how can they possibly bring us higher or deeper?
So each of these ministry functions fulfill different roles, but their purpose is the same, and that is, to bring ALL of us into that same fullness, that same spiritual maturity, that same experiential knowing, which the elders themselves enjoy. Thus, He gives SOME, till we ALL… SOME, till we ALL… SOME, till we ALL. Do you see this? And He will continue to give SOME till we ALL. Once He has ALL then the work is complete and these ministries will no longer be needed. Until then they ARE needed, and they are critical to God’s Purpose.
Judy T Chong
9 months ago
YES YES YES In total agreement with You Brother Chip.
Not head Knowledge but Spirit lead Wisdom.
Thanks for Sharing,
Blessings
Judy
mike
9 months ago
Good word Chip!
My experience in my previous home church is that the goal is to get teachers to fill classrooms. The only thing that is required that you place membership. You don’t have to know anything but follow the “curriculum”.
I was one who thought I had to learn theology in order to know God…since many I know could spout of any theological doctrine. Once I was out of the IC, I realized nothing like that matters…but to KNOW CHRIST…everything else is vanity!
Mike
Vicki
9 months ago
Chip – I understand the SOME for the ALL. I have a curious tangential question. God gives gifts 1 Cor 12 including but exceeding these 5 from Eph. My experience in my recent ‘church’ days at ‘full gospel/charismatic/pentacostal’ churches is that the churches that seem overall more mature IN HIM are experiencing less of the manifestations through the spirit – tongues and interpretations for instance. I ponder the idea that b/c that particular body is moving more fully toward true knowledge of Christ (2 Pe 1:3) and receiving from Him directly and knowing Him more fully (epignosis vs gnosis) that there is less need for outward, corporate manifestation as each saint is being fed directly by Him and the need for a ‘corporate feeding’ less necessary. Is it possible that the SOME for ALL may not be an absolute line in time, but a gradual change and that those walking with more fullness of truth may have and see less manifestation of these gifting’s. I DO NOT present or think of myself or of these churches as greater or having it together, per se, but wonder about the reason for the paucity in display of these gifts and ponder that perhaps it is a ‘God-thing’ in maturity. Are you able to read between the words and hear what I may not be able to try to articulate. Appreciate your thoughts
Vicki
9 months ago
thank you -
koen
9 months ago
Hi Chip,
We got kicked out several times because of this but we never compromised. Great to see that God is waking up so many people all over the world. He is really doing something in these days.
I enjoy your daily thoughts and find great wisdom in them. Our struggle in Belgium is also the struggle against religion, words without deeds, form without meaning. It shows Gods grace is infinite. If he can stand that, He must be God !!!
A question though on 1 Pet 5:5. You put the “younger” as opposed to the “elder”. Then you explain that the “elder” is the christian who walkes in His footstep for a longer period of time and bearing fruit. Unless you mean it of course, but the Greec doesn’t show this contrast between young and elder. It looks like a nice play of words in English, but not in the Greec. There it talks about neoteroi (younger men) and presbuteroi (men in charge, overseer). I agree with your point of view as a concept. We should let us instruct by elder people in the Lord. But that elder one is not necessarily a “presbuteros”. Although the Bible requires them to be an “elder”, they aren’t by definiton. So, unfortunately, the Greec literaly says in this passage we should put us under our “overseers”, even if they aren’t capable to be a leader. Of course they refer to this passage time and again, to close all discussion. Sad.
This is not a criticism, just an observation.
Keep up the good work.
One in Him
Koen Welter
Belgium
Joanie
4 months ago
Hi Chip, brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus.
I know my relationship with Christ has deepened. It’s vitally different than when I first got saved. Actually in the last 7 years….especially and I know how it happened. I was determined to know Him. I started praying, THe lOrd’s prayer everyday. Also reading proverbs, looking to hear always from God for direction. Then I began being obedient to the word. Because I always had the word in me, the Holy Spirit would remind me of it, everytime I was in a situation. Although there were many obstacles, and deterants coming my way, I determined in myself to follow my Lord’s ways. I can honestly say that I do not reconize myself from the person I was 7 years ago.
Chip Brogden
9 months ago
Yes, I see where you are going with this and I tend to agree. I Corinthians 13 reinforces the idea that “when that which is perfect (e.g., mature) has come, then that which is in part (spiritual gifts, prophesying, etc.) will be done away.” The Corinthians were carnal and such carnality required remarkable manifestations of the Spirit in order make an impression upon them. However, as one matures spiritually, there is a “perfecting in love” that makes dependence upon spiritual gifts less critical. I’m not sure I can explain it other than to say it is a deeper knowing.
The Charismatic movement (generally speaking) never matured beyond the need for these manifestations, and they continue to emphasize them, even to the point of accepting things as being “from God” that a more spiritually discerning person would immediately reject as carnal.
However, if a person has NEVER experienced the Spirit-filled life including the spiritual gifts then I don’t believe spiritual maturity is possible. We cannot mature out of something we have yet to experience. So the presence or lack of spiritual gifts in a person or in an assembly is not enough by itself to judge maturity or immaturity in spiritual things; one must look at their history to see if they are progressing, standing still, or moving backward.
Maris
9 months ago
Thanks, mike! That’s an encouraging testimony that God causes all things to work for the good of those who love Him – even theological studies.
Chip Brogden
9 months ago
Thanks for your feedback!
Actually “presbuteros” just means elder, older, advanced in life, senior. If we take its basic definition then it works just fine in English and in Greek. In Israel the old men were considered the wisest and most experienced, so they were always elected to leadership. In the Ekklesia it is not a matter of age or election but spiritual maturity, and it is the Holy Spirit who appoints. So you see the trouble is not the word itself but the meaning we attach to it. Maybe that will help in your discussion the next time it comes up.
As another example, the word “pastor” means “to shepherd”. But somehow the meaning we associate with that word got changed from a function into a title. Language has a way of saying whatever we think it says. But the Holy Spirit bears witness.
Thanks again for reading Koen, and may God bless your stand for the truth there in Belgium!
koen
9 months ago
Hi again Chip,
many thanks for your reply and explanation.
The conclusion should be then that we have to deviate from the original biblical concept of “elder” because it doensn’t work anymore in the reality of today’s system of churches, we, men, have created. Leadership in the church is too often in the hands of young men/couples. Sometimes because of lack of alternative and sometimes because “friends of friends are friends”. Immature men have to give leadership and make major mistakes. But lets face reality today: even older leaders make these mistakes and on the other hand, I can imagine that this must have been a reality 2000 years ago. Age does not equal good leadership. Not today and not in those days. I wonder how they coped with that 2000 years ago and before that. Was older age really = wisdom = leadership ? I can hardly believe that. I think I certainly depends on what an individual does with the faith he received. Jesus says, plant it and it will grow. I think that’s the critical point in the process: planting and letting it dy and grow. Perhaps we have to invent a new name for “elder”. Something like “master sower and reaper” or “the one who died most”…:-). There’s (probably) no relevance to age at all. Do we have to conclude then that God meant “sower and reaper” but made a mistake and said “elder” ? I will read whatever response but it’s certainly one to keep for eternity and ask Him face to face
Bless you Chip in your audacity
Chip Brogden
9 months ago
Yes Koen, that is the point of my article – that your “elder” in the Ekklesia is the one who is spiritually mature, irregardless of their physical age. They are not elders just because someone elects them or puts them into leadership. It is a matter of spiritual life, not title or position. Anything else results in the problems you describe. I like your description: “the one who died most.” Very good. Blessings to you too.