Re: Hebrews 10:25
Dear ?,
As someone who values the written Word of God and teaches others to value it, I am particularly alert to any accusation that I am contradicting Scripture. However, in your case (and in the case of others with your mindset), I find that there is no contradiction of Scripture as you suggest, only a contradiction of your particular interpretation of Scripture. To suggest, as you do, that Hebrews 10:25 refers to attending church services on Sunday is quite a stretch of the imagination, since “church” as you attend it did not exist at the time the book of Hebrews was written. So I accept the Scripture, but I do not accept your interpretation. If I thought it meant what you think it means then I would be in church every time the doors were open. That was my manner of life for more than 25 years. But I was in error, and so are you. God showed me a “more excellent way”, and He can show you too, providing you allow Him to open the eyes of your heart (Eph. 1:17,18).
The crux of your error is based on several assumptions, among them, that the only way to assemble together with other believers is to go to church. This assumes only people who go to church are true believers; that there is no possibility of gathering together with followers of Jesus outside of a church service. That is incredibly naive and overlooks the fact that many do, in fact, gather together in the name of the Lord Jesus and enjoy Christian fellowship without being “attached to a local church body” – an interesting phrase you use that is not, in fact, mentioned in Scriptures, and certainly not in the manner in which you mean it.
Rather than rehash that whole discussion with you privately, I refer you back to the website, where the issue of the Ekklesia and the “church” has been discussed, re-discussed, and presented from a Biblical and Spirit-led viewpoint. Any of the writings in the “Ekklesia” section under the “Read” tab will be beneficial to you, but in particular “Gathering: But Not for the Better” delves into Hebrews 10:25 and a few others.
There are many Scriptural principles that support coming out of a corrupted system. God brought Abraham out of Chaldea, the Hebrews out of Egypt, the Jews out of Babylon, and the Christians out of Judaism. God Himself withdrew His presence from the Temple when Israel persisted in open rebellion against Him and declared it “Ichabod – the glory has departed.” “Come out of Babylon” is the present-day call of God to His people in the Book of Revelation. Since you are concerned about the Scriptures being contradicted, how do you justify your continued support of a system that in your own words is “grossly out of step with Christ and with Scripture”?
And as much as I value the Word of God, I believe God Himself is the “final authority” in deciding what Scripture actually means. God reserves the right to interpret His own Word and will not allow us to elevate the letter of the Word over the God of the Word, which is precisely why the Pharisees failed to recognize Jesus even though they continually searched the Scriptures. When God spoke to Peter and said, “Kill and eat,” Peter protested that this violated the the written Word of God; why would God command him to eat something that Scripture said is unclean? But God is right, and even when we cling to the Word of God and quote verses, we must still, in the end, submit to God Himself. There are many instances where following the letter of the Word puts us in disobedience to the Spirit of the Word, and God reserves the right to come in and correct us when we mishandle the Word – which I believe has happened with Hebrews 10:25 and with many others.
In addition, your suggestion to go back and submit to leadership in a carnal religious system is dangerous and unhealthy. That would be like telling a married woman to go back and submit to physical, sexual, and emotional abuse from her husband because the Bible says, “Wives, submit to your husbands.” Using Scripture to justify submission to spiritually abusive leadership encourages the abuser to continue abusing both you and others; is that really what you want to do? Why not just submit to the Lord Jesus and do what He says to do? Why not just submit to one another in love, as Scripture says? You decry the carnality of the church yet you continue to support that carnality with your presence, just as Lot came under the influence of Sodom and found it harder and harder to leave it or even understand why he should.
Lot was fortunate enough to have two angels take him by the hand and drag him out of Sodom, but God will not do that with you and me. He expects us to judge righteously and use spiritual discernment, balanced with Biblical wisdom and some good old- fashioned common sense. Should you spend some time perusing the site and actually reading and listening to the teachings without trying to bring “correction” I think you will find we have a very high regard for both the Scriptures and for what the Spirit is saying. If you are truly grieved by what “church” has come to represent then please ask God to show you what the proper response to it should be. Stop putting yourself and others into bondage through the ignorant application of Scripture that you received from a fleshly leadership that has a vested interest in having you support their system. It is your response to Hebrews 10:25 (not our response!) that determines whether or not your spiritual life will progress or deteriorate. The wisdom of Christ’s approach in our lives, versus your approach, is evidenced by the fruit He produces in us.
I am your brother,
Chip Brogden
Hi Chip, all I know is that the Lord has called the women, His bride into the wilderness, so he can protect and teach Her. The days grow darker and so few have heeded the call,
” come out of her “My” people”. They dont hear His voice or refuse to listen, yet they claim to be His. Christ is right all men are wrong. My father knows me and I know my Father.
In All His Love
HEBREWS 10:25 and HEBREWS 13:10-14 Judaism rejected the Lord and their house was left desolate. True believers in the Holy One were to keep meeting OUTSIDE Judaism bearing the Lord’s reproach. The Holy City Above is our home! Likewise “Jezebel” ( Babylon – Roman Catholicism ) was given time to repent but did not – forsake her and her harlot daughters to humbly FOLLOW THE HOLY ONE. LOVE THE LAMB OF GOD while loving our fellow believers who will also come out before long! Omnipotent and Omnipresent LOVE will do it 100%!
There is also the Greek of the word “forsake” which means “to turn your back on”. We have not “turned our back” on believers’ assembly because we don’t attend church. Rather, we pray more for it and them.
That Scripture in Hebrews never bothers me, so the meaning of it must be something other than what some people think that it is. I have no sense of conviction of being wrong through not doing what it appears to be saying what I should do. Since I left the Church where I was experiencing the presence of the Spirit of Jezebel, I now have such a much closer relationship with the Lord, and a sense of release from a spiritual bondage. When I think about that Scripture in Hebrews, what always comes to my mind is about Jesus coming in a vision to Ananias to tell him to go to minister to Paul. (Acts 9: 10-17) I don’t really understand why this Scripture comes to my mind, but it could be that the Lord is saying to me that I don’t have to be a member in some fellowship gathering to be ministered to by Him and to be ministering to Him and for Him.
Hi Chip, I do not think that it matters where you meet [assemble] as long as the Lord Jesus is in control. This only comes from humility, [blessed are the poor in spirit], and obedience. These are topics that aren’t touched on much now days.
Structure has wasted a lot of our time and leads to fractures in the body. No I do not support the “Nicolaitans” and I have seen as much lack of growth and discipleship in the alternatives.
The answer is to humble ourselves and walk in obedience to the Lord Jesus as He walked before the Father. Then it won’t matter where we fellowship because He will be with us.
Regards, Eddy
Read Andrew Murray, ” The School of Obedience” & “Humility, the Beauty of Holiness.”
Thank you Chip. I feel inspired again. A very important issue because so many leaders have used the guilt trip approach on believers when it comes to our attendance and our money. As Clif pointed out,”we ARE the church.” Allow me to share the vision the Lord gave me after I became increasingly discontent with the pastor-couple of a ministry that my wife, Pauline, and I had helped plant. (Church plant, if you will.) This, I believe, also explains why so many other ministries today have “gone off the deep end”.
In the vision I heard the Lord call all of us, who were part of the planting, to a meeting. I saw a boardroom, with the Lord sitting at the head of the table (I could not see Him, but knew He was there), while everyone else was sitting around the oval shaped table. “I have chosen you to start a ministry”, He said. Everyone was so excited and humbled that the Lord would choose us. “Do not worry, we will continue to regularly meet, as I am helping you with this ministry”, the Lord explained. Two years (or so) later, after having gone through several seminars, read some, by our pastors suggested books, and watched Karl George’s video series on how to run a “professional” church, we had another meeting with the Lord. This time in the vision our pastor spoke out, telling God how we didn’t need to meet anymore because we had “learned”, through our own hard efforts and studies, how to run the church.”
This was the beginning of becoming “seeker-sensitive”, and with pastors excitedly pushing for Rick Warren’s 40 Days of purpose.
Through an over-eagerness to do the work and to please God (Martha working up a storm in the kitchen while Mary sits at His feet), leaders have taken control of (highjacked) something that was never theirs to begin with. It is doomed to fail! The Lord taught me that there are two types of discontentment; one is fuelled by pride resulting in a critical spirit; the other is holy discontentment, which is God-fuelled uneasiness with the status quo.
Blessings, and All 4 Jesus!
Mario
This is my reply to 2 comments above, from my own thoughts on the Deception that is Religion.
“Your Body is the Temple of the Holy Spirit”….YOU ARE THE CHURCH you cannot GO TO….YOU ARE.
The LIE of the Reformation was that Protestanism was the new ‘ pure, true Biblical path to God, IT IS NOT……JESUS CHRIST IS…they did not “COME OUT”, they just set up another form of Rome / Babel, just another Serpent Religion.
In Luthers own words “ No one can deny that we hold, believe, sing, and confess all things in correspondence with the old church, that we make nothing new therein nor add anything thereto, and in this way we belong to the old church and are one with it” ( Thomas M Lidsay, A History of the Reformation, Vol 1, p. 468)……..and God tells us RELIGION KILLS.
————————–
I AM the Way He said and I believe HIM.
– Clif
SO VERY VERY TRUE!This is what the Lord has put on my heart to study and ponder on,the very explanation you just gave.Thanx
for your insight and understanding of God’s word.I truly don’t feel alone and what I’m realizing is real and not my own thinking.In the past I’ve been sooo confused,but not anymore.
Thank you Chip for the insight you provided in your explanation of what Heb. 10.25 says . When God began to lead me out of organized religion in 2005, I couldn’t take the step because I felt I will be going against His command in Heb. 10. 25. Well through a series of events He finally brought me out in 2008. This same question is now being put at me from organized church attendees. However, those who dare to come close to me are being pulled out by the Lord himself from the organized church and together we are enjoying a thorough discipleship by the master Himself . We are all growing in the faith at a faster rate than we were while in the prison called physical church. We share testimonies of the work of the cross in our lives. The flesh, the world and the devil have lost us . Jesus is glorified in our sittin, walking and standing.
Chip, I can tell you that my love for the Lord is growing and I can now boldly declare that the death of Jesus Christ on the cruel cross demands more from me than what organized religion has to offer.
Christianity is easier than I ever thought because He teaches me Himself. Oh how I love Jesus!
God bless you Chip
Mary
Paul gave us the vision of how things were going to be in the last days:
2 Timothy 3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
Aren’t all these abusers right there in the institutional church leaderships, right now? My experience tells me yes. I didn’t get that experience because I was a bad girl or a disobedient girl or someone who wanted to run the show: I got that experience because I became needy, and appealed for help. Rather than acknowledge the wrong that was done to me and care for me (a well-respected elder made a serious pass at me) the pastor and leadership ganged up on me, tried to dismantle my reputation, and turned things around as though it was I who made the pass at him.
It took me too long to figure out that there was something very wrong with this picture. But in the end, I understood.
In relating the story I have been accused of being bitter and unforgiving, and have been told that I am disobedient by staying out of Sunday church. I am certain I am none of those things, since God Himself delivered me of these false accusations, because I was beginning to spiral down into depression, trying to find unforgiveness and disobedience when it wasn’t there.
Strange how simply telling the truth can get you into so much trouble like this!
I have come out and I will not go back. I do not feel guilty at all, but I do feel lonely and I do still feel needy on many levels. But I know that through much tribulation we must enter into the kingdom of God (Acts 14:22), so this is not entirely unexpected.
Many of us here have been abused by the institutional church with such behaviours as Paul described above. He told us to turn away from them. That is good enough for me.
Bless you Mary.Praise the Lord that He has given you food for the soul and peace that surpasses all understanding.I walked away from the only church I ever knew because of an abusive pastor and I have grown closer to the Lord in the process.I have no regrets.
Bless you, Chip!
good word chip–that’s exactly how I see it–thanks
– Thanks Chip.
Thanks Chip for wording that message to that person so succinctly! I am surrounded by a bunch of people who think I am a heretic because I have no desire to “attend” their tradition on Sunday, and to get involved in it. They make it very clear that I am wrong and they are right…..according to their mindsets and traditions.
When I returned to God after 21 years in the wilderness, He would not have me join or even visit ANY church for 7 years. I sat at His feet in all that time – just Him and me and my Bible, and FEASTED from His table. Then when He had me go to a local church for a wee while, I was able to see SO MUCH that they did was not scriptural….I was not influenced by tradition, or man’s opinion, or false doctrine, because the Scriptures were embedded in my heart and mind. He has been leading and guiding me ever since, and I rejoice in the sweet relationship that my heavenly “Abba” Father and I have through Jesus. And I am able to point others to Him free from man’s influence, and encourage and URGE them to seek the TRUTH in the Scriptures for in THEM is Life, and Truth, and the Path….as the light of the Holy Spirit guide us. I am simply the signpost to point to the ONLY One who has the power to save. Hallelujah! My salvation is not to be found in a church building at 10am on Sunday morning and Wednesday night by rote, but living every moment of every day in His Presence, and His will.
I’m thankful to read your post.I prayed for several years for the Lord to show me truth of what I was being taught in the church I attended.I still truly love the people that attend this church,but so much of it is wrong.My spirit stayed grieved with how people were treated and neglected by leadership and there where too many people rubbing elbows to get what they wanted and outright wrong doing from the pastor.Most people just look the other way and ignore it all,no matter who or how many gets hurt.My family and I had all we could take,so we left and never looked for another fellowship because the people there are like family to us and we could not ignore that.We are still in the wilderness with Christ and I thank Him that He pulled us out of a system that is not biblical.Our eyes and ears have been opened and we’ve been set free,but I am treated by others as being wrong and confused,but I know the truth.After being out I see so much of it that is so false,even more now than before.
I believe it is right when you say submit yourself to the Lord! If the Holy Spirit would have me stay completely away from organized religion (as is the case right now) I need to do it. If He ever made it clear that I was to attend church somewhere for HIS purpose, then I need to do it. I believe that if we try to listen to the “Spirit of the Lord” we will be free- in church or out and we will not be able to hold on to False Teachings for very long because the Spirit guides us in ALL Truth.
As I am out of church completely, I am so grateful for this ministry that keeps providing that Truth!
God Bless!
Nicki
i enjoyed reading the comments. it gave me encouragement. people are on the ball out there, that’s good. when you speak up, you may get beat up a little for it. that comes with the territory, you know that. we also sometimes got to visit man made religions occasionally and keep planting seeds, being gentle in the process. that’s how many of us got pulled out of them.
Thanks Chip! I am so thankful that you are there to affirm to so many of us what the Lord is trying to show us about organized religion…..it was hard to leave because it was a life pattern, but I have grown SO much after I walked away from the filter I was seeing the Lord through! When I told the congregation what the Lord was showing me, I was accused of being a false prophet! Oh well. I couldn’t stand the spiritual bankruptcy anymore.
One day I had a vision: I saw all these people sitting in a church staring blankly at the front of the church totally unaware that Jesus had come to call His own to join Him in the air. They never knew Him.
What does it mean to not forget to assemble ourselves.?Whatever it means, we’re not to let it go.Maybe it’s not enough to wait and when nothing happens to say, well the Lord will keep me, whilst our hearts are truly breaking….we may live alone, be injured or disabled or sick .One cannot be cut and dried,indeed it could be quite dangerous for some to be in isolation.Also when Jesus was with Peter James and John on the mount of transfiguration, the disciples begged to stay, and I can see why, how marvellous to bathe in this perfect light.Yet the truth was they went back down mingled with the ‘lesser men’, got their hands dirty again and carried on with the work.We could be asked to do likewise.Now we discern what the harlot church looks like, we are stronger for it,also our time on the mountaintop has served us well, I just wonder if it might do us as much as those who do not have the revelation good to reach out, as members not only of the body of Christ but of the human race also to one another. We are called to be salt and light after all, to be sprinkled to be visible and not be hidden, to be loving and to not be afraid.
That was a wonderful explanation, Chip, for why Heb. 10:24 does not mean be in a church each Sunday. I love that you pointed out that church as we know it today didn’t even exist when Hebrews was written. I believe the building itself didn’t come along for 300 years after Jesus’ resurrection. I also loved your use of Peter’s vision to show the God of the Bible is greater than even His written word. So stay tuned to His voice!
My wife and I were found by the Lord while we were practicing Catholics, the mother of all denominations. He soon led us out of that error and let us work our way through a few Protestant sects before we realized it was all the same false institutional church. We saw that Christianity as it has been known and practiced for the last 1700 years or so was a man-made institutional invention that had nothing to do with what God intended for His people. Yes, the church offers many spiritual benefits, but in the end it takes far more than it gives. Starting with our freedom in Messiah. (Gal. 5:1).
When we finally understood church membership/attendance was nothing but voluntary slavery we left. That was in 1980. And for the last 30+ years we and our children have walked joyfully with the Lord and found plenty of fellowship outside the camp. It truly is a faith walk!
Brian Hennessy, your the first person I’ve seen on the net that also believe The Catholic church to the mother church of all denominations.
People can’t believe it when I tell them that The Protestant Denominations are nothing more than The-Re-Form-Mation of Catholic Church Doctrines.
SO VERY TRUE!
Hello Chip,
I read a lot of your post and I agree with a lot of what you say in regards to organized religion. It really depends on the mindset of the person and the church they attend. I attend church regularly and enjoy attending church, but I don’t go to church because I feel obligated. I go to church to hear the word and I enjoy the fellowship. The word that I hear helps me to better understand how good God’s grace really is. Don’t get me wrong I study out the things I hear and I am led by the Spirit and in my studies My church is much different from mainstream church. We only preach about the finished work of Christ and the grace of God. I agree that people going to church that feel obligated or condemned if they don’t are going to the wrong church. I also believe that there is no requirement to go to church, but I go out of choice. Organized churches that just bring bondage are definitely not of God. If the church preach is truth the truth set you free. God’s love is unconditional and there’s nothing you c. an do to get it and there’s nothing you can do to lose it. Some people find that in church and some people find it out of church. Organized religion is not the answer but organized church is not always problem! God bless you brother!
God is my all in all…………he is a great conversationalist, just try him. He puts some good questions to me too…………and then explains them in detail. I have been alone for a long time, and actually now, would have it no other way. We get along very well even though he is always right LOL. I praise him for being who he is and for coming here to save me.
Again words of wisdom Chip Thank you 🙂
This is very, VERY well said Chip! SInce I am not gifted similarly, I do best to keep my mouth shut (ha). It’s encouraging to see more and more come to this same place of understanding. God bless you!
i like your write up which i quite understand. I hav been out of religious system for 6yrs now and have been enjoying following Christ outside the camp. However, there is this area i seem not to know how to handle. I am presently in an environment where It’s hard for me to have such fellowship with believers of similar understanding (home church meeting). I really need fellowship with Christians but I feel I should allow God direct me to one of these denominations around, where i will not be a member but partake of the fellowship with God. Kindly tell me your view about this.
Hi guys,
2 things. #1- I don’t think this is on your READ list. I got it by clicking on PROOF on your comment on Christ was Hidden. You might want to add this to the list.
#2- I went to the beach yesterday with a friend. I brought 1 of your articles to read, and she brought a devotional. Her devotional said this couple then decided that they needed to find a church. My friend starting laughing. She said she didn’t know that was going to be in there. I’m a slow processor, so I didn’t say anything.
I know my friend loves me, and its just that she doesn’t understand. But I was thinking, but that WAS church. “Whenever 2 or three are gathered together, I am in the midst of them”.
Am looking forward to reading this article.
Thank you so much for this site. It is very encouraging.
I thank God for His grace and faithfullness in that He promised that He would always have a witness on earth. As we approach the end of this age we are told that the darkness (deception) would increase greatly and that it would be a time of famine (of God’s word) and though I frequently feel as if I’m alone in the wilderness, like as with Elijah, God shows me He has 7000 priests a remanant, hidden in a cave. That there are people on this web site, in addition to other sites, that the Holy Spirit is awakening from a slumber, calling them to come out of her and into the light, is a balm to my mourning spirit.
Man, made in the image of God, has both physical and spiritual components. We, like Adam, live as physical, natural, earth men, blind to the spiritual realm, until God sends His Spirit to enlighten us. It is then that we begin to realize that the spiritual world overlies our physical existence and it is at this spiritual level that we chose either life or death. We are taught by God that our sin (rebellion to God’s rightful authority over His creation) condemns us to death but that through His Son, Christ Jesus, we can willingly chose to be restored to God eternally. Praise God! The problem is in not realizing that our soul is in a continous battle with eternal consequence.
The truth, Christ and His righteousness, must be birthed in us, a new creation, the spirit man, a son of God, restored to God’s image, His righteous character. Opposing this birth are satan, the world, and our biggest enenmy, our old, natural selfish self. We must follow Christ to the cross,die, and leave the old man in the grave so that we can ascend, in Christ, to life eternal. Our problem is that cross. We do not want to die, to forsake all, and follow Him, Christ, with our whole being. But a divided kingdom with one foot on Jacob’s ladder and one foot on earth will fall.
So what does this have to do with church? In the book of Proverbs we read of two women, one called wisdom, unto life and one a seducer,a flatterer. She has many faces wearing what ever face is necessary to snare a soul, to cause that soul to fall away from Christ. She is the mystery whore of Babylon, Jezebel, the mystery of iniquity, the woman who hid three measures of leaven into the kingdom of God. Yes, the kingdom grew physically but it spiritually became corrupt, leavened, puffed up, self exhaulted. Paganism and its “holy days” (holidays) were incorporated to make church acceptable to the natural man. Rather than marrying Christ, she, the church married the state. Judaism, the religion of the pharisees, as a corruption of old covenant law, contributed intermediary priestly men between God and man rather than the only necessary and sufficient High Priest, Christ Jesus. Physical temples (church buildings) were erected on every corner. This despite Christ’s teaching the Samaritan woman that He is the temple. Now the sabbath day was changed to appear different from Judaism but Christ is our sabbath rest. We are called to abide in Christ continuosly, everywhere. Not one hour on Sunday at the clay (brick) building giving 10% mammon, then back to the world the rest of the week.
We have been blinded, made drunk by drinking her wine, to the high calling in Christ Jesus. By their fruits you shall know them. A Christian America is morally decaying at an exponancial rate. We support war, oppression, and hate. We confuse this country with the coming Kingdom of God. Rather than one Spirit and one mind, we have countless denominations. Which one speaks life saving truth? Is it not an affront to God that He gave us the two witnesses, His spiritual word, as taught by His Holy Spirit, to the spirit man, the food for our soul,the bread of life, that we run to babylon in her priestly robes, a wolf in sheep’s clothing, appearing as a minister of light, to eat her bread and drink her wine. God will answer according to our idols. He will send the strong delusion 2Thel 2.11-12.
The problem is how can you grow a church when you preach taking up your cross daily. It is so much more pleasing to say I am rich (holy) and in need of nothing (perfect), as the Laodicean church and the pharisees before them think. Having a form of Godliness but denying the power (not submitted to the Holy Spirit-the foolish virgin). Like ancient Israel, called by God but without saltiness, without light.
God is calling us out, lest we share in her plagues. Will we heed the call, wake up from our slumber, and light the lamps, like the wise virgins or be caught at midnight with no more oil because we have so grieved the Holy Spirit, saying in our hearts, give me a Savior but not a Lord. The leaven of the pharisees is this: I praise God with my lips but my heart is far from Him-not willing to die to self and live in loving submission to God and His righteousness.
God has heretofore winked at our ignorance but judgement day is rapidly approaching. If we are not mourning over our own sinful estate and that of the corporate church we must seriously consider whether or not God’s Spirit still resides with us. Now it is time that we put away our childhood delusions and idols,our spiritual adultery,and stop eating her food (like the condemned priests of Baal), daily eating our spiritual manna, the Word, and pray fervantly and continuosly to God for forgiveness, for spiritual discernment,for conviction, for our lives.
Amen!!!!!
Jesus is Lord. For the pleasure of our Father, He saved us and is leading us toward maturity. Because Jesus is the Good Shepherd, He knows where we are, where He wants us to be and how to get us from the former to the latter.
The thing we need to understand is that we’re all not in the same place. When Israel crossed the Red Sea, I don’t believe they walked across in a single rank and reached the other side simultaneously. Some crossed to safety and waited while others were in transition while others still were waiting to cross. Nevertheless, in the end, they ALL reached safety. Like the children of Israel, we find ourselves in the same situation in various areas in our lives. In some areas, we’ve crossed over and gotten the victory; in other areas, we are in the process of crossing, struggling to make it to the other side yet all the while being changed from glory to glory. And since we are still breathing, I’m sure there are areas in our lives the Lord has yet to address. Regardless of where we are, we have been given a promise: When Jesus comes, we will see Him as He is for we will be like Him…all of us.
So here’s the question: How do we deal with each other while we’re all in transition? In reference to Heb 10:25 some believe that if one doesn’t attend a local church, one is not submitted to authority and thus out of the will of God. Others believe that because they’ve been called out of a local church, everyone else has been called out and anyone who remains in a local church is in a harlot system. Why do we judge another Man’s servant when He is able to make him stand?
Since it is the Father’s will that none should perish, our High Priest tends to all: the children, the young and the fully matured. Each has their own needs and He ministers to them as He sees fit. He leads us in or out according to the dictates of His own will. What we don’t recognize is when we judge others according to our standards, we actually question the Lord’s ability to shepherd His sheep. It is not up to us to judge Him as He goes about His Father’s business.
To those who have been called out, I humbly remind you that there is a case to be made for being in a local assembly. For the young, the local church is a place where they can learn, where they can be edified and built up, where they can make heart connections with like-minded brethren, and have access to body ministry that is available in the local house. It is also the place where they learn that many don’t “walk the talk” and begin to yearn for something more. Consider that no one is born fully grown and already prepared for the wilderness journey we ALL must take. (And though some have been wounded by those who remain in the camp, it by no means justifies our response to that wounding. Certainly, looking back allows us to see the working of God in our lives. In retrospect, isn’t the wounding a small price to pay for the closeness to God we now enjoy? Please forgive them, they know not what they do. Besides, eventually someone is going to have to go back there and get them. Moses was sent back for his brethren, Jesus and Paul taught in their temples and Peter and John testified there as well. We are not so special that we get to receive all the goodness of the Lord and sit on the sidelines. There is work to be done and as you know, “to whom more is given…”)
To those who believe that the Heb 10:25 requires all saints to gather at the church, I ask you to prayerfully consider that there is also a case to be made for not being in a local assembly. The Holy Spirit drove (compelled) Jesus into the wilderness where He was tested (Mk 1:11). Since no man is greater than his Master, shall we not also be tested if we are truly His disciples? The stones used to build Solomon’s Tabernacle (a type and shadow of the church) were hewn in the wilderness and were later set in and fitted together (I Kings 6:7). We ALL are living stones being fitly framed together into a holy habitation, and for many, the shaping takes place outside the camp. The woman of Revelation 12, a type of church, escapes persecution by fleeing into the wilderness where a place has been prepared for her by God (vs. 6). If the Holy Spirit is pushing someone to get to a place He’s already prepared for them, do you really think it’s wise to get in their way? With God at the helm, the wilderness is a place where one is made vulnerable in order to be proved and molded all the while being kept safe. It is a place where one learns to lean on their Beloved. (And if you haven’t reached this point yet, don’t worry: you will.) Lastly, consider the apostle John received the Revelation on the deserted Isle of Patmos and Jesus, Moses, John the Baptist, and Paul all came from outside the camp to perform the will of the Father.
The bottom line in this is that we are to follow the Lamb where ever He leads. If He calls you to a local assembly, be there. If He calls you out into the wilderness, go. Hear from God and do what He says. Walk after the Lord with all your heart and don’t let anyone cause you to stumble. And while you’re walking hard after Jesus, don’t cause anyone else to stumble. Understand we all don’t have the same calling and each of us is a unique expression of the Lord Jesus Christ. You see, God sets the solitary in families AND He brings out those who are bound with chains (Ps. 68:6). As we get our lessons walking the narrow path, He rarely explains what He’s doing with us, let alone what He’s doing with anyone else. It’s fruitless to read the bible with others in mind. When you read the bible, those Scriptures are written for you. When I read the bible, those Scriptures are written for me. We need to stop pointing the finger at others and concern ourselves with what the Lord is saying to us. And as Chip said, our response to what the Lord says to us determines our destiny, no one else’s.
The reason we have such discussions is because our vision has shifted from the Living to the dead. Somewhere along the line, eyes have been taken off of Jesus and what He is doing only to be placed on men and what they are doing. And while we debate these things, the Lord waits for His enemies to be made His footstool and the world continues to die. It’s no surprise why the world holds our beliefs in such contempt. Brothers and sisters, WE are the windows of Heaven. Christ in us is the hope of glory, the revelation of God and we are the closest thing the world will ever get to seeing Jesus. If only for the Lord’s sake, let us put aside the petty bickering, respect those whose paths differ from our own and press on toward maturity and the upward call of God.
With love in Christ Jesus,
Pat
Thank you Pat,
Beautifully stated. This helped me
Pat TOTALLY gets it! AMEN!
When we are born again we are born into. The Kingdom of God, and it is built upon Jesus Christ, the Truth. The Truth is a Person, when the Person has you, the Truth has you, you can’t separate one from the other, and Christ becomes greater and greater as the Spirit of Truth leads us from Truth to Truth, that is the way of the Spiritual life. It is not that we become much better, but it’s the Truth that is revealing more of Christ to us. I believe we have to obey the Truth. If we don’t we will never be free. Now if that is true, how can a disciple, stay in a place that is false,that is not genuine, and not true. A disciple is led by the Spirit from Truth to Truth and we follow Him from faith to faith. The Truth is : The Church is His Body, Spiritually it is all in Christ.
Donny.
Thankyou Chip for your clear, precise, open letter regarding your response to the person who attempted to correct you on Hebrews 10:25. I always wondered just how to appropriately answer people when they said that to me. Then I realized the people that said it to me didnt really care to hear my answer. They just had that religious “I know I’m right” spirit. Now, if it comes up in a conversation about not being involved with a “local body” I tell people that since I left the “church” (quite a few years ago) I love God more then ever! What can they say then? Who will correct me for loving God?
Thankyou Chip.
your sister,
Betsy
Its been 25 years since departing form the Harlot system that stands on the street corner calling men in the twilight hour to come in. She has stolen water that seem to be sweet at first but leads one into being part of the congregation of the dead unknown to them at that time.
Our heavenly Father has been faithful all these years and still keeps us in His care as He daily provides us new bread and blessed wine afresh for our growth in the new creation that He has given birth.
We know death and life work in us yet today always hoping to be able to share His love to all He bring across our journey in this foreign land as ambassadors of our heavenly country we now see by the faith His first begotten ,Jesus Christ, our brother.
His sheep here His voice and will not follow another. That is the only reason all of His will come out of the false dead woman that calls herself the church but is really a great deception that could fool the very elect if possible but cannot because of the intercession of Our High Priest. Only by each individual receiving a personal revelation of the Gospel that Paul received of Jesus Christ can one walk in the truth of the way being born of God.
There is another gospel and jesus that is acursed because it is of the natural man which the world listens and which the Harlot woman snared her great multitude of deceived which all we were of before be called to come out of her.
Our prayer and travil is to Christ be formed in them by the Holy Spirit of God and our Father.
Kenny
I believe God is sufficient enough to get anyone out of these places that hear His voice. I had to stay in a church until I was in extreme torment before God let me leave. But, He did use the scriptures to lead me and help me understand “why” I had to leave. And when someone cried out “the Christ is here” – the Spirit said “Get out!” .. That was about the last day I was in the place. The preacher mutilated and perverted the covenent and put himself in the scriptures where Jesus belonged (Abomination.)
I have to believe that God left me there (even in horrible torment) – not just for the torment of it – but to truly learn discernment and be an eye witness to what men can do with His Gospel. He would let me know things to come before I’d get to church and hear or see it. Experiencing these things is far different than just learning of it in the scriptures. We can then become a witness for the things Jesus said would come to pass and warn others of the dangers. I still warn others in the town where I live of this man and that church.
It made me a woman to pity God far more than I know how to pity people.
PS: Jesus made sure when I was suppose to be there. He’d make sure I got up on Sunday mornings – well in time to make it. When “we” were done there and nearing the end – He quit being so good at getting me out of bed to go. Isn’t He funny 🙂
Some coming togethers just are not for the good (or cease to be any longer).
Thank you Chip,
Praise God for giving a shephard understanding.
So many Church Pastors pushing for Big Strong Churches.
Strength In Numbers, Strength in Wealth…To Change The World?
~ But to The Church
who Jesus sets the door open for?
As The Pillars 0f New Jerusalem?
Who He will keep from the hour of trial
which will come upon the whole world?
Are Of Little Strength! – Rev.7-13
How many Pastors desire A Church 0f Little Strength?
I find it interesting that Jesus said
those of just a Little Strength?
Are able to Keep His Word! And Not Defile His Name!
It is He Himself who sets the door open for them!
So then, what are Pastors so worried about anyway???
Maybe Pastors are more concerned about
their Word and their Name.
Sacrificing many sheep for their own Pedistool 0f Praise!
Thank you Chip for not
sacrificing His sheep for Your Ministry. –
Dear Brother Chip,
Praise God! Thank you so much and to all the loving and beautiful sisters and brothers who responded. At last the long dry wilderness is rained upon.
The hope is alive and strong that my Lord will lead me to people locally that have answer to the call of coming out. Till then I am blessed to be able to connect with you and others.
Love and Blessings to all
Hello Chip,
I love your Christ-centered teaching! I am not so hung up on religion as such. I still go to church and do not condemn those who don’t. I go to a small local church and I must say that there are things that are great and things that I not so great. I have learnt so much from you that I have learnt to follow Christ no matter what situation I am in. Your articles are a blessing and have taught me to live for Christ. To me this is all that matters. I personally have friends who love Christ and are part of a church and those who love the Lord and are not part of a church. As one brother pointed out earlier following the lead of the Holy Spirit is key. If the Lord says I want you to get out of organised religion then you get out. If the Lord would have you stay then you do.
As long as those who go to church learn to follow Christ then that’s alright. Maybe if it was not for organised religion I wouldn’t be a christian. My opinion is you get saved in organised religion and then you want to know more about Christ because it’s His Spirit that lives in us and so you pursue Him and this is how I found a friend who introduced me to your site in 2000. I love your teaching!
May the Lord Bless You.
Farayi
I think that I, in common with almost everyone else who has written here, have frequently had this verse stuffed in my face by those who were disconcerted by my not attending a ‘recognised’ church. I had a very simple understanding of the verse: If I go to church yet no-one is actually willing to be real with me, then it makes a complete nonsense of what the verse is saying.
Of course in practice there is never any opportunity to justify our position through the scriptures. Those that are open to hearing what we have to say, can see in our lives that we are following Him, and are much more interested in how we can help them get closer to Jesus! Those that are not have already put their fingers in their ears and are saying ‘La la la’ in a very loud voice so that they won’t hear unless we agree with them! Just as Jesus said quoting the words from Isaiah about listening, but not hearing.
It is sad that so many don’t see that to step away from organised religion because of recognising a calling from Jesus requires faith, it requires a total dependency, it requires a dying to our ambitions to ‘be something’ for God, there is no security of support of an organisation. It often costs us friendship, and may even cause our own families to reject us, there is no-one there to bring us encouragement, but rather people will slander us and set about trying to undermine us, whilst our hearts break with love for those rejecting us.
Funny thing though – isn’t that exactly the path Jesus calls all of us to walk, like a seed falling into the ground and dying?
The interesting position that I find myself in now, is actually being part of a fellowship again. This has brought yet another set of difficulties. Even though everyone acknowledges that we want to be walking Jesus’ Way, and not be trapped by religion – the reality can be quite different.
One of the difficulties is that even as we seek to simply be a part of the Ekklesia, the established churches around look at us as ‘phew! they are back in the fold. Ok they have some slightly odd views, but at least they meet together and are obeying the bit in Hebrews 10’. The persecution from other Christians stops, and they will even send people to us to encourage us. Just as much as they didn’t want to have anything to do with us as individuals, now that we meet together we are ‘bona fide’.
The persecution now becomes very much more subtle; because now the need to hold onto Jesus doesn’t appear so desperate, because the attack is not constantly there in our faces. Now the attack comes from our taking ‘too much’ rest from the battle, by finding that those added to us by evangelism haven’t gone through the same experience of rejection by formal religion, so they don’t recognise the danger. We need to be desperately hanging on to Him through thick and thin, well we have done the ‘thin’ and that was a battle, now we have the ‘thick’ will that make us fat?
The challenge to ‘come out from among them’ still remains for the many who are caught up in religion. The challenge of how to stand as we become more in number and start really ‘meeting together’ maybe even more difficult to face. We still need to die to our flesh to become alive in Him, and that is the key to seeing His work continue through us as a body, rather than us as individuals.
God bless you all
God bless you dear brother Chip and all beloved brothers and sisters in the Lord,
i also concur with the issue of life and death ,presence /absence of Jesus in any meeting.in our context i discovered that most of the so called believers are motivated by good and bad and they don’t worry whether Jesus is happy with it or not. i have no business with an organized religion and my sole purpose is the Lord Jesus as i am living with a life that has a definite purpose and race. i finally understood that people in the religious are most dangerous than unbeliever for protesting the Lord as they have learned this ‘wisdom’ form the dead system.nevertheless the Lord is bringing His people out of Babylon and let us pray that the Lord continue to open the eyes of many in this regard. To tell you the truth i was one who used to think that i would perish if i only go out of the religious system even for a week. Millions of Christians in Ethiopia are not only dissatisfied with the Religious system but also very angry with it although they have not yet discovered the root cause of the problem.
Glory to the Lord Jesus!
I am sitting here stunned.
My now former pastor just informed me that anyone who doesn’t attend church regularly is deceived and lost.
He also told me that he heard I told someone something inappropriate about him and a list of other things…I’ve been accused of feeling inappropriately about him and that’s just a lie and I’m feeling really upset and vulnerable right now.
Thank you so much for your website. That alongside of my Bible gives me the support I need right now. Not to mention my Lord, Jesus. The only good thing to come of this is that I’ll be leaning on His arms a lot now and in the future.
I don’t see myself ever going to church again. Now I must get to the business of praying for that man and the people who attend that church. And forgiving him and them.
There are two scriptures that comes to my mind..I didn’t read all the responses so don’t know if anyone shared them. The first is when Jesus said “how can you believe, giving honor to one another?” If we still hold onto any form of heirarchy or put some ministers on a pedestal we are in danger of losing our own faith. We can’t abdicate our responsibility to hear and obey the Holy Spirit for ourselves. The second He gave me is that “we are to know no one after the flesh”. SO many times the traditions of men and the status quo keep us from true fellowship in The Lord. We must return to the simplicity of the 1st century church meeting house to house and sharing body soul and spirit with eashc other exhorting each other as the day approaches.
Assembling together unto the Lord is not what many Christians assume or teach that it is. The living Word of God speaking to us by the Spirit is not to be set aside by a narrowed theological viewpoint (tradition) that mishandles biblical text as a law. A deeper issue beyond assembling together is the “how” and the “why” we should assemble unto the Lord as His people.
The sad but true realization that traditional Christianity continues to ignore is that there is NO scriptural basis for the clergy (elders/pastors/bishops) vs. the laity (pew-warmer, chair-sitter, lay-person) structuring of our current-day faith communities.
It was understood by ancient Israel that there was the Levitical priestly caste vs the common Hebrew. That was God’s way then. It was as well understood by Gentile religious people that perhaps God made some of their people to be spiritually strong and the priest/prophet/leader caste system evolved before and continues to this day after the Levitical priesthood came into being.
BUT . . . the the Son of God, the Living Word of God, Jesus, the High Priest came, served, died and was resurrected — and intercedes even now for ALL sinners.
By faith we now see and know via the Spirit of Truth and the Living Word of God that the Levitical Priesthood ENDED with Jesus’ perfect Priest/Prophet/Leader work of sacrificial salvation.
As well, all other Gentile-based or pagan-born systems of religious worship to the gods or the god — are empty, ineffective ritual and DEAD tradition. These systems of religious behavior vaunt themselves up before the Holy One in blind and stubborn fleshly defiance and ignorance of God’s new Temple, God’s new Church, and God’s Son. They are a dangerous alternative to Christ alone.
How dare we go quietly along with any error that lifts one man above the other? How dare we call any man our leader? How dare we say we serve the Lord by bowing before any pulpit?
We are the temple! We are the Church! Christ is the ONLY Head!
God forgive us — for our not functioning as His Body.
God forgive us — for not honoring our Head, the Lord Jesus.
We are all to be functioning saints; priests and warriors, bringing in the kingdom of God, being raised by the Spirit into elders among the flock. We are all equal before God — all His children by faith.
God respects none of our traditions, none of our whitened steeples, none of our well-hewn pulpits nor any of our cherished post-Levitical, post-Hellenistic, post-Catholic, post-Protestant, post-religious vanities.
He is only looking for His Son in our midst.
The Lord inhabits the praises of His people.
May God deliver us from our oh so comfortable idolatry to religion and may He deliver all its blinded servants.
Dear Chip…lol… there were times in the past, that I wish I had that voice to say that.
Reasons to hold tight to Organized Religion:
1.As long as one believes a building is the church,…one does NOT have to be concerned with “BEING” the CHURCH.
2.As long as one goes once or twice a week to listen to another
declare the word(?) one does NOT feel bad about being too busy to bother with the studying of the Word themselves!
3.It is MUCH easier to follow, than to lead,…after all that requires a bit of SPIRITUAL guts!
SO VERY GLAD “YOU” HAVE THEM, BRO. CHIP !
Bro.Chip,
The LORD bless you! For so many years I was alone in this area in seeing the revelations that you have enough LOVE of God’s Children to “declare”! After many years of praying for
communion with those that had seen and uderstood, I came across
your ministry through the inJesus sight. I “cried” with JOY over and over, as I would read each one. I have all of what you have posted,…in print. Why? Because the TRUE and Living WORD is so very hard to come by. AS you said,(in one) of them, we must PRAY for the Eyes of their understanding to be opened !
I have spent much time with the LORD on this very subject. He has shown me by His Spirit, that the word from Paul about not forsaking assembling together,as some have done–was because of the fear of the persecution and death. Many of our dear Brothers and Sisters in Christ JESUS were becoming more and more afraid to gather together on a regular basis because they were identifiable as a group that was gathered together, and therefore easily raided, arrested, tortured and killed. Just like the underground churches throughout the world to this very day. He was trying to encourage them not to forsake one another, because the fear and terror would devour them individually. To be bold and trusting and to gather together and encourage one another in the Spirit. SO for the modern day “church” to twist and wrest this scripture to their own advantage is abhorrent. When one brings together a pack of untrained dogs, no matter how good the trainer is–there is mayhem and never is there a time when all of the dogs are on the same level at the same time. This is an accurate comparison to the church today. WE gather together many who are tares, and few who are wheat and proclaim that the “spirit” that is there is the Holy Spirit, yet the sins of the church are equal, and sometimes greater than the sins of the world. So how is it that gathering is the answer to anything? Only the “trained, obedient, dogs” can come together in order and accomplish anything in the LORD. Incidentally, it is an absolute joy to go down the list of all of my fellow “trained, obedient, dogs” and call each out by name. How sweet it is to see the hearts of all of you! How wonderful to see the objects of my constant prayer and lifting up, fleshed out and given names> I LOVE YOU ALL!!!
I think a mountain is being made from a mole hill. This scripure is very basic in its point – we must consider the time in history and who it’s written to. First of all, the writer of Hebrews is writing to newly converted Jews who left the “old law” and it’s rules to follow Christ and His Law of Love. The staunch old law Jews would do anything to bring those converts back into their fold. Finding those who stayed to themselves were “easy pickings” and easily swayed because of their youngness in the Lord and their not being strong enough to resist their old ways. This verse has nothing to do with assemblies and everything to do with not leaving the Lord. The writer implored the new converts to talk with each other, yes “meet” if you will, with each other WHENEVER it was possible. Meeting just meant, get together, have coffee, have luch, bump into each other in the street. The point isn’t the meeting, it’s what’s talked about. He wanted the Chistians to keep Christ in the forefront of their discussions – deepen their knowledge and love for the One who saved them from destruction. Sort of a power in numbers thing…that way, they wouldn’t be so easily pressured to go back to the Old law as was the custom of some. The “some” were those who left Christ, not the assembly. Don’t mistake me, I’m not saying that if you’re on your own for a whilein the Lord, you’ll easily turn away. Not my point. This for the Jews was so new, so foreign and the pressure of the old law was great. This was also written before the destruction of Jerusalem – that is what the Spirit has shown me. “as you see the day approaching” was said then to warn them of Jerusalem’s demise and that those not with the Lord would be destoyed with it.
And, to apply it to us now – as we see the day of the Lord approaching – we must take heed not to turn from the Lord -or we face destruction. We edify each other WHENEVER and WHERE EVER we speak of the Lord – when He shines in us. That is always – not just in a building or in organized meetings -which God didn’t ordain in the first place. Brothers and sisters, we are not under the “old law”. The day Christ was revealed to us and saved us – was the day we were removed from that law of sin and its rules. This verse was not a command of God – it was the writer inspired of God begging them and all of God’s children not to leave the Lord. The only command now from God is to Love God and one another. This Love keeps us from the sin of killing, lust, gossip, etc. Anything that hurts another. That’s His Law of Love. Our own devises, as good as they might be – won’t keep us in His fold. Don’t be easily swayed back to the old ways and not have Christ. Even our times alone with the Lord are for teaching from Him and building of knowledge and wisdom, not for our own selves.
Wow!! And here I thought that I was a loner all of these years.. Thank you to everyone for their honest comments on this subject, and to Chip once again, for his hard work in putting these words on the net for us to absorb. I just got cornered Friday night on the church thing so this was refreshing!!
God Bless You All!!
Chris
There was a time that when we entered the assembly, that the power of God had His way and would fall on the congregation. The Spirit would mess the order of man up, and the preaching would not be done because the man of God could discern not only good and evil but what God wanted to do at that particular moment, meeting etc.
Only the Spirit of God can teach the spirit of man.
Faith is the SUBSTANCE of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. We are now seeing an epidemic of substance abuse in the natural because there is a big SUBSTANCE ABUSE in the supernatural. There is no private interpretation of scripture, but only the Authors interpretation as to what He meant. In our fasting, we need fast from carnality, that we do not constrict the flow of the Spirit of God.
I agree with Chip on this article.
When I first got saved God called me “to come out from among them and be ye separate” and “whoever loves mother and father more than Me is not worthy of Me” and I left the Catholic Church. My mother did not speak to me for a year.
After twenty years in various ‘Daughters of the Whore’ He called me to take that a step further and come out of all organized religion. Now church-goers don’t want to talk to me.
It doesn’t matter. Following Christ is the only thing.
I have gone through various phases since leaving the system. As one person commented, for a while I left one wilderness for another, but I have come to see that Christ still leads His sheep even in the darkness and the Spirit still teaches us lessons even in the wilderness. Our walk with God is a journey and every step has its reasons and ALL things work together for those who love the Lord and are called for His purpose.
As for those who do not ‘see’ – only God can make blind eyes see. I am only called to pray, be a voice crying out in the wilderness and be a witness to the light in the darkness. (Maybe that is why God allows us to experience both — it eliminates self righteousness and creates empathy in our hearts.)
Thanks, Chip, for being a loud voice in the wilderness and a bright light in the darkness. Keep on keeping on!
~ Susan
Chip,
Thanks for your teaching on this important subject. Scriptures have explicitly forbid us from touching the unclean thing. The Old Testament gave us many illustrations: leaven, leprosy, walls and gates, etc., and examples of the consequences attached to ignoring this command. The Jews were God’s people, used to show the rest of us, the penalty of disobedience in this regard.
Hag 2:12-14
“If one carries holy meat in the fold of his garment, and with the edge he touches bread or stew, wine or oil, or any food, will it become holy?”‘” Then the priests answered and said, “No.” And Haggai said, “If one who is unclean because of a dead body touches any of these, will it be unclean?” So the priests answered and said, “It shall be unclean.” Then Haggai answered and said, “‘So is this people, and so is this nation before Me,’ says the Lord , ‘and so is every work of their hands; and what they offer there is unclean.
These verses speak loudly to a nation caught in its sin, and it speaks loudly to America. Where did the mentality come from that says, that if we put a Christian in the midst of the world we can make it holy; that by a Christian presence we can spread holiness? Where did the mentality come from that says that a Christian can maintain their purity when simultaneously mingling with impurity? Who said that we could keep an open relationship with the world and come away unscathed? It is a lie, it cannot be done.
Haggai here declares the same; it cannot be done. The pure person cannot by being with impurity and mixing with them impart his purity to them. But, to the contrary, if a holy person touches an unclean thing the holy person becomes unclean. To say it plainly: corruption and sin are more easily transferred to the righteous than righteousness transferred to the unrighteous. So the rule seems to be plain enough. Don’t think that an evil person living in the midst of goodness will commend that goodness to the evil person. The Spirit has declared that it is not so, but this is exactly what we see, routinely, in the institutional Church. We advertise, we promote, we poll neighborhoods, we beg and we plead that the world would please come and be a part of us, and they have, and we have become corrupt and unclean, deluded, because we now see as the world sees, and we see that the world’s ways and means have great promise for the Church. We have become an unclean thing and we don’t know how to repent, so the Lord will come to us in our darkest hour, and we will see our nakedness and be ashamed.
Steve Blackwell
Thanks Chip for expressing so well what so many seem to be feeling around the world.Heb 10;25 as well as so many other scriptures have been often wrenched out of their context to support the system rather than build up the true body of Christ.As a former pastor myself I know that many of the “shepherds” are as institutionalised as the sheep.(Actually more so!)Thank God for the freedom and simplicity in the gospel of Christ.
From what I’ve experienced in the past, being “assembled together” in some “local churches” resembled a public school classroom. Yes, physically, the people were gathered together, but spiritually, they were miles apart, each with their own agenda. The leadership taught and within the classroom were the children…some intent on listening and learning; some there for their social fix; some there to enjoy showing off their new purchases; some feeling safe and important in their tight little cliques; and some simply lost and trying to find their way.
Thankfully, I know there are some “local churches” that are hearing what the Spirit is saying. There truly is an assembling together. Not in the sense of a physical coming together but an actual fitting together of believers by Christ, in Christ and through Christ. The focus is on Jesus. The acknowledged Head is Jesus.
I believe that some of the most powerful assembling that takes place is outside of the local church. Maybe it’s because there is more freedom and opportunity to operate according to the Lord’s leading, without being bogged down by expectations, timelines and programs.
Wherever the assembling takes place, it requires first a yielding of “self” in order to walk in Christ in Spirit and in Truth. Then we need to trust the Lord to guide and lead each one of us individually to where He deems that we need to be. Perhaps the Lord will lead us to walk with Him in the wilderness for a season. Maybe the Lord will lead us back into the institutional church for a period of time according to His reasoning. Wherever the Lord leads each of us, we need to abide and obey according to His instruction.
There are no barriers that can divide, separate, or contain the Church that Jesus is building. We’d be wise not to try and build any.
Connie
Hey Chip,
Reading your letter, one can only imagine what kind of letter prompted it. While not disagreeing with any of the content of your letter, it seems somewhat strident. But then again, as someone who is prominent in stating these things, you probably get many who challenge and attack you. Maybe a forceful response is called for. I hope your response brings life to the one who wrote the letter.
In my experience, the problem with many local denominational churches isn’t so much that they are organized or religious or denominational, rather there is a lack of spiritual life about things. . . Christ in a living way is not present. Both for the individual and the group there is no denial of self, no cross taken up, and no increase of the measure of Christ within. While the lack of the living Christ in the midst of things may not be the fault of organized religion, certainly organized religion makes it easy to avoid the whole issue. The fault may lie more in that it allows people to be comfortable with being dead.
So the organized church can be the wilderness in the world as well. . . so why is that surprising? While it would be nice if the name Church meant the reality behind it. . . that Christ is the life of things. . . it should not be surprising that something is dead when Christ is neither present nor embraced.
While it is right to discern and criticize everything that organized religion offers in place of a living Christ, yet in that wilderness Christ can be found and embraced and followed. And that is true of the individual or the group, Christ is available to those who deny themselves and follow Him. The emptiness of the untrue thing often makes true fullness that much more appealing.
It is not enough that folks simply leave organized religion. One can go from that wilderness to a new wilderness of their own making if not following the Lord and learning Christ.
And while the Lord often calls His own to be on their own with Him for a time, yet the heart desire for true fellowship and body life remains. In physically being with other believers there are benefits, not just that we can be encouraged along the way, but also that we can lovingly and constructively be corrected. Apart from Christ, living apart from others may keep us from all those times where in very practical ways we can learn Christ and have that tested genuineness that is precious to the Lord and so needed in this world. And being alone, apart from Christ, can leave us blind to these things.
How much do we need the living Spirit of God to lead and guide us thru this life.
Alan
Dear Brother Chip,
I appreciated the candidness and frankness of your open letter regarding Heb. 10:25. I am thankful for your willingness to cut straight the Word and help this person see the truth in the Word as Aquilla and Priscilla did with Apollos.
I suppose this comment really does not pertain to your letter directly but when you consider that most of the New Testament is composed of letters written to churches in a particular city i.e, church in Ephesus, church in Corinth, etc. one is led to wonder if God wanted a letter written to the body of believers today in a particular city or region – where would He send it?
I can’t really find any scriptural basis for the way organized religion meets and it doesn’t take a Bible scholar or theologian to see that the very standing of organized religion keeps it from standing in a position to receive God’s blessing. I am always reminded of Psa 133. Behold how good and pleasant it is for brothers to dwell together in unity (oneness)…For there the Lord commanded the blessing even life forevermore.
By the very existence of so many denominations they lose the ground of oneness upon which God is able to bless and pour out life upon the believers.
I also appreciated the love in which your correction and instruction to the recipient of the open letter was delivered. May the person receive it in such a way, in love, and may that person seek the Lord for His Guidance, Wisdom, and Light.
Continuing to pray for you and yours as you strive to be a faithful steward of His word,
tanya pettit
A special building has no Godly power. Paul had to rebuke the problem-ridden Corinthians. Solomon wrote in Proverbs of a stiffnecked person who was at the point of utter ruin in the midst of the congregation!
Christians think church is a place, its not, its a PERSON. We are constantly told we are in HIM, to abide in HIM and we are joined to HIM. We are the Body of Christ. We can meet in a coffee shop, a basement, a living room, a park bench, it does not matter where, or when. What truly matters that we are in HIM and becoming like HIM.
We have been warned to be aware of false Prophets, teachers. And where you have false apostles and teachers you are going to have false authority, they will tell you they have the authority of Christ- but do they. We have been warned not to be deceived. All authority in heaven and earth has been given to Jesus Christ, Jesus Christ is the Head over all authority, there is no authority outside of Jesus Christ. If a group of believers join together and it makes no difference what label they put on it. The only authority they have, must be an expression of Christ’s authority if it is not. It is false, because there is no authority outside of Christ. Now I can’t judge the hearts of members in these groups, and I will not, but I believe if a member has really received the life he has a responsibility to live out that life, because he has entered into partnership with God. We both have a part to play God’s part is to show us His word our part is to do it. He is a just and loving God. He will reveal His word to each member in His time and at His pleasure. He will do His part. The problem is will we do our part. The root of the problem is some have usurped Christ authority and others have submitted to that authority which is not God’s. Lets pray that their eyes can be opened.
Donny
Well said Chip,
I do not believe anyone can understand where we who have left organized religion are coming from. I remember sitting in services and asking the Lord to forgive how I was feeling about those services. How angry I was at times because what was coming from the pulpit was not anything more than the same old fluff. Why it is that the Lord has some of us come out and not others I have no idea. Maybe we hunger for more than the system can supply. I do know that if we ask we shall receive just as the scripture says. Institutional thinking is a hard thing to shake and the guilt that goes with it.
I for one am thankful for you and your teaching brother Chip now with the web bible studies I feel like I belong again.
Thank you
Donna
As I read this, it is a reminder of where I was several years ago in organized religion. I too came out of the Charismatic movement and everything I had experienced and was told to believe came to me by the traditions of men. It was not until
after 11 years of trying to be a good Christian and performing works before men and God to get their approval that I began to see that something was missing. I began to ask God to show himself to me in a deeper way that I may Know who He really was and who I really was because I had started discerning that God was very different than what I had experienced. Somehow I knew (Revelation) I had to resign my position of Elder (elder) and leave the men’s tradition of church.
I just wanted to be free to hear the Holy Spirit speak to me.
God sent me and my wife to a Servant of His to teach us about our true Idenity in Christ. God began the decreasing of our Religious flesh and the Increasing of Himself and by His Grace we received another Revelation (Our True Identity). We wanted to tell all of our friend’s about the real truth which set us free. What we found was that our friend’s were blinded by the traditions of men in the organization we had previously left. I said all of this in order to explain that it took a strong desire to want to see who God really was and by steping out(in Faith) and away from the bondage we were in, we were able to receive (by Grace) His Revelation. People that are in an Religious Organization are blinded to the truth because Religious men,(before them)could not give them what they don’t have,(Revelation of who Christ really is and who they really are In Him). They have become Blind leaders of the Blind and if you try to argue with them, you subject yourself to fall in that same ditch, so Jesus said to “leave them alone”. This is what Jesus was up against with the Pharisees. They could not recognize who Jesus was because they were not given Revelation. When you have received this revelation, God begins to remove the Blinders from your eye’s so you are able to discern His Word, then you will be able to see clearly into the mirror (Gods Word) and see you ,In Him and Him ,in you. The Holy Spirit will teach you Gods Word.
As for as Heb.10:25, the Holy Spirit reveled to me that I can gather anywhere with Two or Three, and Christ in each one of us, is present .
In my limited thinking, I believe not forsaking the assembling of yourselves together means that we need each other because we can lift each other up and encourage each other in the Word. It does not necessarily mean in a building. Thank the Lord for the Internet and technology WE CAN ASSEMBLE online and get that encouragement and uplifting. However, I do believe that a smile and a hug and kiss does a lot for the heart. I know that there is NO PERFECT church because there are NO PERFECT PEOPLE. Wherever we go there will always be challenges because we live in a fallen world. But it is our responsibility to live the life that is pleasing to the Lord so that others can be drawn to Christ. The Word tells us that Iron sharpens Iron, and it’s sometimes when we are in the company of other believers that we can get the rough edges smoothed out. We need each other. Head can’t say to the leg I have no need of you. We are all members but one Body.
Dear Brother Chip,
I have a lot of respect for you and I know that sometimes when I do not understand what you are writing. I will put aside and take it as I am not mature enough to learn it now. I believe that when it is time for me to learn it, the Lord will bring to mind that paragraph or that article.
I am a slow learner and I don’t want to try to understand something that is beyond me. Truth is caught and not taught (that is how I feel). To me, being with the Lord and learning from Him is what I love to do.
“The Best Part of Life is Loving Him and the Best Part of Love is Serving Him.”
You are a anointed teacher.
Blessings
Sister Judy
My Views.
In all things I always fell that we need to agree to disagree.
As we are all in different spiritual level and made differently, what one sees now will or might be different in later years. As His Holy Spirit teach us and guide us, there is a need to for us to be humble and to obey as He Lead. We do not know everything.
To me, the church is not a building but it is when two or more gather together in His name, More importantly is that we do not neglect the fellowship of the saints with Christ being the CENTRAL of the fellowship which I agree with Chip in one of the articles that he had written.
Being Christ focus is the main thing (which I felt) and that is what our Lord had taught me when I write Poetry and Songs. It moves my focus from “SELF” to “CHRIST”.
If one find that being in Church and it is Christ focus fellowship, than go ahead. If one find that they are better outside of the Church and their fellowship is Christ focus, than go ahead.
Why do we argue on this ? (Sorry that is how I felt). Shouldn’t we let the Lord decide how He wants to lead us.
What does it benefit us to argue ? Does it edify Christ ?
We can win an argument but lose a brother. We can win an argument but lose a soul. So let us come to accept one another as we are, with all our flaws. Did not the Lord did that for us at the cross ?
This is written out of Love and not one of judgement. One that felt that if we were to carry on to argue because of our interpretation, it would grieve Him. Let us not argue but love one another by accepting them as they are. If they did not response likewise, then we just pray for them and bless them.
Always written In His Love
Sister Judy
Chip,
your reply regarding this matter is very well explained. I witness to the correctness of the reply.
In the end, each of us must rely on what we feel the Holy Spirit is leading us to do, ie. attend OC or not. I am burdened by those who choose to support the OC but still i am persuaded to allow them the freedom to make that choice based on what they think God leads them.
When some condemn or judge us who ‘hear differently’ from the Holy Spirit, i am spurred on to continue to ‘flow in the Holy Spirit’s direction’. In love i would reply to the judgement only as the Holy Spirit would have me reply, or not reply.
A reply that is ‘Life’.. nourishing to the ‘new creation man’ that we have become. Praying now for those who are less mature and knowing my calling to ‘go on to perfection’ are my response to a my brethren saddled in the ‘bondages’ of man made religiosity.
The day will come when we as a Body of Christ shall come forth as the perfect dwelling place for the Most High God. We shall be the ‘tabernacle of His presence’. He shall be our God and we shall be His people. In the perfect relationship that was planned and purposed from the beginning. No more in bondage to the ‘death’ that we embraced from the ‘fall of adam’, but transformed into His glorious Light. We are being changed..from mortal to immortal and from corruptable to incorruptable.
Hold on tight, it’s going to be a ‘wild ride’.
D
It is strange that people get so hung up on this, it is as if they have not read the whole book of Hebrews! If this verse meant we were to go to church, then the author contradicts himself because chapters 8, 9 and 10 are pretty clear that the old system of having a building to meet in was a pattern that has now been done away with (see Heb 8:13; 9:1,7-9,11-12,24; 10:1-2,15-22). Would someone who wrote all that, then say “by the way, don’t forsake meeting together in a building (made by human hands) every week”? He had already laid the foundation of the ‘more excellent Way’!
And the Greek word in this verse for gathering together is used only 3 times in the Bible, twice in this verse, and despite not saying WHERE to gather yourselves together, many interpret it to mean a church. BUT if that were true, then the other time the word is used does not fit with that interpretation because it DOES tell us where to gather together: “…in regard to the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ, and of our gathering together UNTO HIM” (2 Thess 2:1). 🙂
HE is where we gather, that is why you can attend a church and be “joined to a local body” and not be gathered to Christ at all. This is not about where we are physically but where we are spiritually; where our heart is! When you gather together with Him, you are automatically gathering together with others who are also gathered in Him! THIS interpretation, has the words of Jesus Himself to support it: “Come to Me”, “Abide in Me”, “Where two or three are gathered, there I am” etc!
Also, the preceding verse is almost NEVER quoted, although it is part of the same thought and sentence; it is all about relationships, and you have no right to admonish someone you see only once a week! It is as an encouragement to “watch over” those heart connections that Father has made (having gathered us together in Christ) and to watch that nothing interferes with that togetherness and unity, fulfilling Christ’s prayer in John 17.